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Current issue : #64 | Release date : 27/05/2007 | Editor : The Circle of Lost Hackers
Title : Hacking your brain: The projection of consciousness
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(* *) Phrack #64 file 14 (* *)
| - | | - |
| | Hacking your brain: | |
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| | The projection of consciousness | |
| | | |
| | by keptune | |
(____________________________________________________)
Dead Underground, for this new Phrack issue, The Circle of Lost
Hackers has decided to start one more new section entitled "Hacking
you brain". We already hear you: "what the hell this subject is in
relation with computer hacking???". Well, as we already mentioned in
other articles, for us hacking is not only computer hacking but
it's much more.
The following article, as you will understand, talks about out of body
experiences. By publishing this article in a magazine like phrack, we
know that it will bring scepticism. The author, in this article, claims
that such out of body experiences are possible. One of the main rule
of the underground is to not be blind and trust everything simply because
an authority claims it, to try everthing by yourself with criticism
and a totally open mind spirit. It's why, for us, the unreasoning
credulity is something more blameworthy than a presumptuous and septic
guy who reject facts without examinating if they are real.
Even if an out of body experience is interesting, what is more interesting
is the new implication that it leads up. It's unrecognized by the current
Science even if it's known for ages. If the following information are
true - what we affirm - then it's revolutionary. Be able to live out of
your body means that the dead is no the end but only one step that we all
have to pass over.
All these reasons make us think that publishing an article like that in
Phrack is a good idea. Because before being a computer hacking magazine,
phrack is dedicated to spread the occult knowledge, unrecognized and
subversive.
We let you discover - and experiment - by yourselves this fantastic
phenomenon that are lucid dreams and out of body projections so that
you can make up your own opinion.
Have a good read.
----------------------------------
The projection of consciousness
by keptune
Since the Ancient times, as far as we know, humankind has been animated by
the most impressive curiosity for almost everything, especially for this
strange thing that is the Mind : something concrete although impalpable to
the subject, yet invisible to the world. Some of the oldest carvings and
paintings that have been discovered in Africa are full of dream visions
and abstract symbols, most likely depicting chamanic inner travels.
However, it appears that the .power. to investigate how the mind works and
to retrieve pieces of information on the consciousness and its mecanisms
has been monopolized early in History by a few ones. Call them chamans,
sorcerers, wisemen, etc., they have gained a social position through the
ages by grabing the exclusive rights of these investigations. Which might
has been wise at first, as the initiations to these practices were mostly
done from master to disciple in order to keep the teaching intact. But
indirectly, it has led the majority to be ignorant of these subjects,
almost fearful about the workings of the consciousness and what could
modify it. When the time came for the brand new .modern science. to
study the Mind, during the XIXth century, some would have thought that
everything was about to change. But in place it was only the continuity
of the past traditions, although by fathering new ones: psychologists,
psychiatrists, neurologists. Nowadays, if you do not have at least a
master degree in one of these subject, you are simply considered ignorant
by the scientists about the mind. That.s right, your . own . mind, your
consciousness. You are just not .authorized. to talk about it, or mocked
at if you try, like a child who would try to build a skyrocket . cute,
but impossible. It is no more than another form of monopoly, to control
the main dogma of materialism in our society. It is like saying that
you are not intelligent enough to think about it, so just do not try,
serious people are doing it for you and will tell you what to think and
how to apprehend your own life. Meanwhile, just work, consume and enjoy.
But guess what: these people, most likely unconsciously as they are being
.manipulate. too by the main dogma, just want to make you think that
you canno.t know anything about the mind, your . own . consciousness,
without them. And you would be a fool to try in spite of this all-powerful
fact. Which is just wrong. Seriously. In fact, you are the one who
is all-powerful about his own consciousness. But you must use it, and
bring it to unknown territories in order to understand it by yourself,
which is the only way. Some might be thinking at this point: my mind
is what it is, what is he talking about? Sometimes I am sad, or joyful,
but my mind stays the same beneath that. Well, wrong. You just did
not try to change it, to push it to it.s extreme. I am talking about
something with the same subjective difference than the physical reality
and a dream. Think Matrix, less the glasses, the robots and the giant
killing computer. I am talking about a skill that anyone can develop:
projection of consciousness, one of the most amazing faculty of the mind.
What is projection of consciousness? Have you ever lucid dream? I mean,
dreaming and knowing that you are dreaming? Realizing that the world
around you is just an illusion created by your mind and you did not
notice it at first? That is a type of projection of consciousness, the
lowest one in fact. You are projecting your mind out of the feeling
of your physical body, into another reality. Dreaming is a type of
projection of consciousness, although non-lucid one are the lowests from
the lowest, not very interesting for the real mind raiders. But it.s
a good bridge to do some more serious projection activities. At this
point of the article, I know that some are already thinking: whatever,
dreams are not real. WRONG. That is a typical shortcut from the dominant
materialistic, so-called .scientific., dogma, which considers that all
that is not palpable is not real. Then your mind as a unity of perception
and consciousness is not real, because guess what, even the best EEG
canno.t find where the mind sets in the brain (if it is in the brain at
all). All they do is record electrical signals here and there. For your
mind, the dream is as solid and real as physical reality. That is why
you wake up sweating from a nightmare, with you heartbeat at 200, and
still all frightened during a few minutes. Or at the opposite, you wake
up with a feeling of completeness after a really amazing and beautiful
dream. Right? A dream is impalpable, but it is real nonetheless for the
observer, you. And now think about this: about one sixth of your life is
made of dreams. Almost an entire seperate life, which most people just
disregard as unreal (=impalpable) and therefore uninteresting. That is
just sad, when you know all the amazing possibilities of the mind, which
can . and will . really transform your life by bringing your attention
to a whole new dimension. Something noboby has ever talked to you about
I guess. Something that is still mostly undiscovered, where you are a
real pionnier.
If you have never even lucid dream, you are situated right now at the
first floor of a skyscrapper, ignoring that there is an elevator just
behind you that could bring you in no time to a flabbergasting landscape
and a whole new perspective. Seriously. You canno.t know what your
mind, your consciousness, is made of unless you accept to explore it by
yourself. The modern scientific method tends to analyze from an outside
point of view, which just canno.t led to a full understanding. It would
be like trying to understand how you watch works without opening it up
at one time or another.
I guess many are thinking right now about shrooms, pot and crack, salvia
divinorum, entheogens, hallucinations etc. That.s on the exact opposite of
what I am about to explain. You do not need anything more than yourself
(and hopefully your mind too) to project in full consciousness. Plants
have been used a lot by chamans to attain different levels of perception,
but nowadays it is very unlikely that you know a chaman that could
guide you into a safe practice using them. Taking some is therefore
not recommended for projection of consciousness, as you need to be
fully aware. Moreover, some might just think afterwards that it was
hallucinations due to the drugs, which would ruin the whole point of
the experience.
So let us start. From my own experience (it is always important to speak
by experience on this subject and not from books or theories, even more
as the point is to gain a first-hand knowledge of all this), there are
different levels of projection (the fact of putting your consciousness
out of the perception of the physical universe, into another form of
reality). From the lowest to the highest:
- dreams
- lucide dreams
- wake initiated lucid dreams
- full physical projection
- higher projections
Everyone knows dreams. Well in fact some people never remember their
dreams, but everyone can after only a few days of training (thinking
hard about the last image in mind just after waking up for example is a
good way to progressively remember full dreams). I won.t talk about it
here as everyone can achieve this state quite easily.
Lucid dream is a type of dream that not everyone has experienced, or
for some only a few times. It is dreaming and realizing that something
is wrong, and eventually that you are in a dream. It opens up a whole
new perspective to dreaming: have you ever thought of controlling the
whole universe? Well, with some training, you can in lucid dreams. It
is also a place to meet solidified parts of your psyche, your
subconscious. Characters become interfaces with deeper parts of your
mind. You can retrieve old of lost information or interact with your
own mind by creating psychic anchors through them. You are like inside
of you own mind, I mean . really . inside, the universe around you is
a symbolic materialized form of what you thought was so impalpable
in the waking state. You can go on the lowest levels of your mind
.programs. (i.e. your personality etc.) and modify them. Or you can just
create your own worlds, and enjoy the landscapes, the .people. you meet
(parts of you in fact, with sometimes what seems to be a real kind of
independent behaviour and own proto-mind). Something I am experimenting
with lately is fusioning with the strongest .people. (part of my psyche)
that I encounter. I just ask to fusion and our bodies melt into one. It
is a really amazing experience each time, and I gain a lot of knowledge
that I did not thought I had. It is like reunifying my mind little by
little. Well, the possibilities are almost limitless, so just think about
anything you would like to do, and you can! It is also a good place to
face blocages and fight them. The result in the physical life is real
if you win. Some have destroyed their OCD in this state, others have
gained enough willpower to stop drugs or take control of their lives etc.
Becoming lucid for the first time can be however some kind of a
challenge. Fortunately, many types of training have been developped. Here
are a few ones. I encourage you to google these for more information
and technics:
- Make your watch beep every x minutes. It can be quite annoying for other
people though. However, this beep will progressively be integrated by your
subconscious mind and will start to appear in your dreams after a week or
two. What you must do (in physical reality) is check out your surrounding
everytime your watch beeps. Do this seriously, it is really important to
get totally involved into this verification of reality. Try to remember
your whole day, and the past days, for chronological problems etc. Do
not think that you are in the physical reality but really imagine that
you might be dreaming. If you realize that there is a problem, well,
congratulations, you are doing a lucid dream now.
- Do some reality checks the same way when you see something strange, or
on the opposite (which might work better for some) when you do something
really basic, like washing your hands, or opening a door. Do it each time
for a few days or weeks, and very seriously (at least for one minute). You
will become lucid if you try this while dreaming after it becomes a habit
(as it will be integrated by the subconscious mind).
- Before you go to sleep, while laying down in your bed, feel the world
around you, feel that you are lucid, fully aware of yourself. Repeat a few
times .I WILL be lucid tonight, I WILL be lucide tonight .. while holding
the feeling of lucidity. Do this until you start sleeping if you want.
Once you become lucid in a dream, stay calm and enjoy. Repeat loudly
every five seconds (to prevent you from risking to lose your lucidity and
being caught back into a normal dream) that you are lucid, it will help
you stay in this state. You can try to fly to move more easily into your
created universe (lift your legs and even move your arms as if you were
swimming might help at first), but do not try harder stuff like going
through walls, teleporting or creating big objects from nothing before
you have enough experience to stabilize entirely your dream. Indeed the
mind does not like lucid dreaming at first and it will try to wake you up
(in this case, if you feel that the dream is losing consistency and the
image is disapearing, concentrate very hard on your five senses, touch
the ground, look closely to some details etc. This will help to get you
back into the dream but you might lose a lot of mental energy doing so so
repeat actively that you are lucid after that otherwise you might lose
your lucidity entirely), or to make you lose your lucidity (typically,
by catching you back into a scenario . a naked member of the opposite
sex (or same, depending of the sexual preferences) might appear, someone
will tell you that something has happened to your house, a giant dinosaur
might start chasing you etc., anything that would get you involved into
the dream will be used, so do not get caught and stay focused!
If you have imagination and willpower (which I am sure is the case),
you will see changes in your everyday life and personality in a matter
of weeks of practice. Your centers of interest might change, as well
as what you feel is important in life, so stay aware of your needs and
aspirations. However, this kind of dream initiated lucid dream is still
not as powerful as a .full. lucid dream.
What I mean by full lucid dream is a dream initiated from the waking
state. Ok, some might think that dreams can only be initiated from
this state, as we go to sleep etc. But do you ever remember the exact
instant when you enter your dream? And moreover, being fully aware
during the whole process? It is a really flabbergasting experience
the first few times. It is like being suddenly propelled into another
world. If you thought dreams appeared slowly, that is far from reality,
as the transition from your black mind vision to the full-colored and
3D dream takes no more than a second. You suddenly feel a new body,
into a whole new world surrounding you. The experience of a WILD
(Wake Initiated Lucid Dream) is extremely joyful and what one would
call .real.. Appart from what is happening (you are flying etc.) the
world seems as real and solid as the physical world would. But it is
more of an Alice in Wonderland thing going on. Doing a WILD is a bit
more tricky than a dream initiated lucid dream, but nothing impossible
to do fortunately. One technic that is very effective is visualizing
(=imagining and feeling) yourself walking into a known place (a mall,
a street in your neibourghood etc.) I think that it is important to
visualize some place you know (and not an imaginary one) as this will
stimulate your subconscious in a passive way: it is less demanding to
the mind to remember things than to create them. I will also prevent you
from daydreaming a scenario and eventually fall asleep without noticing
it. So just lay down, close your eyes, relax for a few minutes and start
visualizing without moving. It is important to really feel yourself in
that place. Do not stop whatever you feel or happens. The transition will
be really quick as I said. Once you suddenly find yourself propelled into
a dream environment, concentrate on stabilizing your lucidity but touching
things, watch closely whatever is near you etc. And then . Well, enjoy!
About enjoying, by the way, some might want to trigger sexual fantasies
in these states. Everything is possible here, remember, and all will
look as solid as it could. In fact sex is even better most of the times,
more intense. But climax will bring you back into the waking state,
and before that you may lose your lucidity as you will get too involved
into the scenario. There are much more interesting things to do while
lucid dreaming, but I understand that some want to try different things.
A higher type of projection has been mastered through times by a few
ones. Originally, it was used by chamans and sorcerers in traditional
societies to retrieve information on a member of the tribe or the village,
i.e. his illness, or discover hidden things. This technic is called by
some out-of-body experience, but I prefer the term physical projection.
Indeed, although real, lucid dreams stay mostly in a totally subjective
universe, there are you own creation. But the mind, our consciousness,
are not limited by the physical boundaries. Crazy? Well everyone thinks
that before he actually does it. What I am saying here is that it is
possible to be in the physical world while not inside your physical
body. How does it work? It is highly debated even amongst those who
practice this. However, it works, which is the important point here.
The easiest way to understand this is by trying it by yourself. One
technic that I developped early in my experimentations with the mind
was the physical projection initiated from a lucid dream. That.s right,
a projection of consciousness inside another projection. It is really
easy so even if you are a full-time skeptic, give it a try. Once you
become lucid in a dream, following the technics explained hereabove,
allow yourself to fall backwards without trying to catch oneself. This
will trigger very powerful sensations, so be prepared to the shock of your
life, really. Most of the times, this is what will happend: while falling
backwards, the image of your dream will disappear as if you were losing
consciousness in the physical world (it becomes black). A strong feeling
of being pulled down will appear and you will hear some very loud noises,
like if you were standing really closely next to an aircraft about to
take off. It can be quite frightening, but stay focused. You might see
some bright flashes of light, like being propelled at full speed inside
a tunnel formed by black clouds during a storm at night. Suddenly,
you will find yourself floating a few inches above your bed. You will
most likely feel very weird, and might not see your body, although if
you try to touch your hands you will feel them, but your body might be
invisible (or more precisely like the predator in the eponym movie). The
environment will be strange too: you room will be your physical room,
but something will feel different. In fact, you will be able to get
through every object, like a ghost mostly. However the environment will
also be very permeable to your thoughts, so if you concentrate to see
something it will appear until you stop to focus. You will feel very
different than in any dream, even lucid, and will be in full possession
of your memory. You should keep your first projection of this type short
however, in order to keep vivid memories from it. You will soon understand
first-hand the differences with dreams and how to act in this new state
of existence. However, be very careful with what you think or do, as
even if this type of projection is very stable (unlike a lucid dream),
you can soon be sucked back into a dream-like environment, or your body
(your might feel tingling sensations in your limbs at this point, and
have painful areas on your body, but don.t worry). So stay focused.
A test that many projectors like to do is putting a playing card on
top of a furniture without looking at it unless they are in a physical
projection, in order to check it later and confirm the projection. But
even without that, you will soon be amazed to observe that you can verify
a lot of what you see in this state. For example, this happened to me
a few years ago : it was early in the morning and my girlfriend left
the bedroom, to take a shower or eat her breakfast I thought. However I
was very tired and soon get back in a very deep relaxed state. I pushed
my consciousness frontwards and found myself hoavering above my body,
fully aware. I floated through the room, then through the door, the hall,
another door, and eventually was in the living room. I was surprised to
see that my girlfriend was sleeping in a f.tus position on one of the
sofas, in its left corner, her face against the back and my coat (which
I had left in the hall) as a blanket. I felt a powerful force sucking me
back inside my body at this point. I immediately checked what I have seen:
everything, down to the slightest detail, was correct. This kind of thing
has happened to me a lot since then. You do not have to be religious,
of even believe in life after death to make this experience, just try
it before you make your own judgement, but give it a try at least.
As you read in the experience I shared just above, I did not project
physically from within a lucid dream. Indeed you can project from
full conscious state too, which is even more powerful. If you want to
learn more about these technichs, I suggest you buy some books about
this subject, like the trilogy of Robert A. Monroe, a classic written
during 30 years of experimenting by an electrical ingenieur which found
himself projecting without even willing it. There are many good books out
there. However projecting from a fully aware state is much more difficult
(but feasable of course), so be prepared to spend some time in training
(usually a conscious projection can be attained in a few days for the
gifted to a few months for the ungifted, like I was).
It seems that there are higher states of projection, apparently in some
all-mental levels, but in an objective, all-mental, universe. I have
yet to get into these, but hopefully some of you will get there in a
few years. Let the community of projectors of consciousness know your
discoveries at this time, as it is all about sharing. Indeed, projecting
your consciousness is even more than a life-changing experience, it is
a matter of protecting your freedom, your freedom to exist as a mind and
a body, and to use both to their extreme limits, and even beyond. Noone
can take that from you, even locked into the smallest and deepest prison
of all. It is not even about believing, it is about trying by yourself
to push your limits out of the ordinary, out of the known into mostly
or fully unknown territories, and discover your true nature doing so.
See you in other levels of consciousness.
K.
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hhhhh, on June 23th 2009 at 4:52 pm :
tepdump-n-u-t
guerillagardens, on June 7th 2009 at 6:51 am :
It's probably un-nerving because we live in this reality, tend not to know what we were up to or in what state before we were born here (some don't even recall much of how they felt about being here during their early life in their current incarnation...it's usually because of spiritual trauma, because this reality is so shit), and nobody has definite proof as to what happens after death.
Or more importantly, why any of it happens. Why it happens the way it does, why for example is the universe based around things orbiting other things, how did those fundamental forces come to be - what from, how were they made, and why.
So when you do something like an OOBE, then it's reminding your whole-consciousness about all those really important things that are ignored here - why is there this reality type, which ignores all of what is meant to be known. What is it's purpose; peoples cultures are not like that of the animals and plants....we wear clothes and our hair needs cut, and so forth. Well it doesn't need cut - but you know what I'm saying, it keeps growing. Doesn't happen with animals.
Some of the older cultures know where-why people are really from of course and how that part fits together.
& it isn't so much the hint that there's those who live in knowledge of some of those why's, but use it for wrong, but that they choose to limit their infinity and assist in keeping this area in ignorance. Where to begin trying to describe how fucked up that is.
Anyway - there's certainly an element of waking life and dreaming that is similar to virtual machine structures. Really this world, in physicality, is like a virtual reality that the soul is incarnate into. Except it's clearly been taken over by the equivalent of spammers and junk & shallow content flooders.
Small-minded egos have control of too much of it, using their little knowledge of magics to enslave this into a pointless resource-waste of timespace.
They're so lame they even attempt to write-in to their control programs, of the cycles of physical structural repeats, some methods to hijack the appearance of stuff like what this comment is saying. In that they would like peoples to be characters in their limited uninfinite silly little dramas, with their beginnings and their ends.
Or more importantly, why any of it happens. Why it happens the way it does, why for example is the universe based around things orbiting other things, how did those fundamental forces come to be - what from, how were they made, and why.
So when you do something like an OOBE, then it's reminding your whole-consciousness about all those really important things that are ignored here - why is there this reality type, which ignores all of what is meant to be known. What is it's purpose; peoples cultures are not like that of the animals and plants....we wear clothes and our hair needs cut, and so forth. Well it doesn't need cut - but you know what I'm saying, it keeps growing. Doesn't happen with animals.
Some of the older cultures know where-why people are really from of course and how that part fits together.
& it isn't so much the hint that there's those who live in knowledge of some of those why's, but use it for wrong, but that they choose to limit their infinity and assist in keeping this area in ignorance. Where to begin trying to describe how fucked up that is.
Anyway - there's certainly an element of waking life and dreaming that is similar to virtual machine structures. Really this world, in physicality, is like a virtual reality that the soul is incarnate into. Except it's clearly been taken over by the equivalent of spammers and junk & shallow content flooders.
Small-minded egos have control of too much of it, using their little knowledge of magics to enslave this into a pointless resource-waste of timespace.
They're so lame they even attempt to write-in to their control programs, of the cycles of physical structural repeats, some methods to hijack the appearance of stuff like what this comment is saying. In that they would like peoples to be characters in their limited uninfinite silly little dramas, with their beginnings and their ends.
Munc, on October 11th 2008 at 6:05 am :
I used to be a skeptic.
Im in my 30s now. But I have set out to and achieved OOBE's during my early 20's. Dr Skeptic, you claim you have tried and achieved OOBE's but state that they are just dreams or otherwise not real. Well I know thats a lie, you have not achieved an OOBE. If you had your attitude would be completely different. Its like you fell from a tree and are saying you believe gravity is just an illusion. So please lay off the Rhetoric.
When i was younger, teens whatever. I found the occult fascinating but never really believed in all that hokus pokus stuff. More of a curiosity and a wonderment. I was quite sceptical and thought many believers to be nuts or delusional, living in a fantasy land of make believe. Either that or they're just con artist, im thinking of so-called psychics. I still am sceptical of such folk, in fact, well i do think a lot of these sorts are just attention seekers and charlatans.
Anyway I got to reading an article in some underground magazine(not unlike this one) that was talking about astral projection and all the related phenomena. Here for the first time i read about some practical exercises i could try, to maybe evoke something weird and occult like...an OOBE, I never really understood what an OOBE was, sure I read articles and read about near death experiences etc. But I had no point of reference and to me it was all just nut talk. But i was inquisitive and I believed that I shouldn't be hypocritical in just dismissing something I had no real experience or understanding of. What harm could it do, at least i could say I've tried it and it doesn't work.
The exercises I tried were of the confirmation type, where each day you ask yourself if this is real, am I dreaming? Basically the same as in this article with his watch alarm reminding him to ask himself the question. I did this for some time, not as religiously as a watch alarm, just when i remembered to do it. I thought it was a bit silly, nothing happened and I guessed i was wasting my time. Id all but forgotten about it when 6 months later I achieved my first intentional OOBE. Or unintentional depending on how you want to look at it. I say intentional because I had set out to achieve it and although it didn't quite happen as I imagine it would. Nonetheless it happened.
I was in John Menzies, a UK Newsagent, they had a chain of them in the area i lived. Every weekend I'd be in there flicking through 2000AD (British sci-fi comic, you know Judge Dredd etc.). I was well into my 'graphic novels' so I'd be looking to check out the latest issues or upstairs checking out the latest Amiga games. This time the store was quite empty and it seemed I was pretty much alone with just me and the checkout girl when I noticed something odd. The comic's shelf wasn't were it normally was, oh and it was so empty, did i mention that already. It was empty in the store and it was empty outside. Out in the shopping centre (Mall) no one was about, it was so so quiet. When there with 2000AD in hand a wash of understanding came over me, a realisation of the implication of the evidence I was experiencing and that of the knowledge i had of this shop. This was a dream, in that moment I knew it, but more than Knew it, I believed it, I felt it deep in my core and in that instance the dream became lucid.
Many people think they know what a lucid dream is. When I tell them that its a dream that feels real, they're like oh yeah I have them all the time. But I can tell by their blasé candour they have not had such an experience. A dream that feels as real if not more real than waking life... Common thats nothing to be blasé about. Im sure there are people that do have them often. But I do not think it is common place. I know Lucid dreams are written about a lot and Im sure many people do actually believe theyve had them. But I dont think it is so. A real Lucid dream is too amazing for people to be off-hand about it. If you've had a real one, I know you know what I'm talking about.
As I wondered around the store with my new found Lucidity, within a moment my reality suddenly compress. All I can describe it as, is like a black hole, or a whirl pool. Everything sucking in becoming a tunnel, a cliché I know, but this tunnel shortly turned to a tunnel of light. There was a great sensation of sucking, like air moving fast past me, the sound was intense, loud and just a feeling of extreme movement. The sound was a white noise rushing and then popping as like decompression. After this sudden shock all was silent, hazy, not hazy, but the kind of silence you get in a fog. A strange eerie light surrounded me like a soft focus with a blue-green tinge and I was aware that I was back in my bedroom. There I was floating in the corner of my ceiling, looking down at my own sleeping body...
I wont get into what I did next during that OOBE. But after this first OOBE I went and achieved another some days later. This second one was much easier to achieve and did not involve lucid dreaming, having the fresh memory of the sensations from this first experience still strong in my mind I was able to get straight there from an awake state. This second one freaked me out as I felt I was getting into something I didn't really understand. This event left me with a lot more questions than it did answer them. But one thing for sure, it totally change my views and understanding on spirituality, consciousness and the nature of reality. Since then I've educated myself on many occult matters and have formulated my own theories, none of which are dogmatic and are constantly up for self review. Im still very sceptical and still believe that many people that talk about such thing to be space cadets and simply off their heads talking a load of rubbish. Mere attention seekers, or self styled gurus, whatever, idiots who like attention.
I believe each person finds their own truth and should do so of their own accord. Only you can do it. No one else can teach you or tell you what is what. This is why I think most of these hippy types to be deluded attention seekers wishing to be the authority on enlightenment. Whatever, most people believe they know what's up, when in reality they dont know shit. Humility first, and you're on the road to true wisdom.
munc
Im in my 30s now. But I have set out to and achieved OOBE's during my early 20's. Dr Skeptic, you claim you have tried and achieved OOBE's but state that they are just dreams or otherwise not real. Well I know thats a lie, you have not achieved an OOBE. If you had your attitude would be completely different. Its like you fell from a tree and are saying you believe gravity is just an illusion. So please lay off the Rhetoric.
When i was younger, teens whatever. I found the occult fascinating but never really believed in all that hokus pokus stuff. More of a curiosity and a wonderment. I was quite sceptical and thought many believers to be nuts or delusional, living in a fantasy land of make believe. Either that or they're just con artist, im thinking of so-called psychics. I still am sceptical of such folk, in fact, well i do think a lot of these sorts are just attention seekers and charlatans.
Anyway I got to reading an article in some underground magazine(not unlike this one) that was talking about astral projection and all the related phenomena. Here for the first time i read about some practical exercises i could try, to maybe evoke something weird and occult like...an OOBE, I never really understood what an OOBE was, sure I read articles and read about near death experiences etc. But I had no point of reference and to me it was all just nut talk. But i was inquisitive and I believed that I shouldn't be hypocritical in just dismissing something I had no real experience or understanding of. What harm could it do, at least i could say I've tried it and it doesn't work.
The exercises I tried were of the confirmation type, where each day you ask yourself if this is real, am I dreaming? Basically the same as in this article with his watch alarm reminding him to ask himself the question. I did this for some time, not as religiously as a watch alarm, just when i remembered to do it. I thought it was a bit silly, nothing happened and I guessed i was wasting my time. Id all but forgotten about it when 6 months later I achieved my first intentional OOBE. Or unintentional depending on how you want to look at it. I say intentional because I had set out to achieve it and although it didn't quite happen as I imagine it would. Nonetheless it happened.
I was in John Menzies, a UK Newsagent, they had a chain of them in the area i lived. Every weekend I'd be in there flicking through 2000AD (British sci-fi comic, you know Judge Dredd etc.). I was well into my 'graphic novels' so I'd be looking to check out the latest issues or upstairs checking out the latest Amiga games. This time the store was quite empty and it seemed I was pretty much alone with just me and the checkout girl when I noticed something odd. The comic's shelf wasn't were it normally was, oh and it was so empty, did i mention that already. It was empty in the store and it was empty outside. Out in the shopping centre (Mall) no one was about, it was so so quiet. When there with 2000AD in hand a wash of understanding came over me, a realisation of the implication of the evidence I was experiencing and that of the knowledge i had of this shop. This was a dream, in that moment I knew it, but more than Knew it, I believed it, I felt it deep in my core and in that instance the dream became lucid.
Many people think they know what a lucid dream is. When I tell them that its a dream that feels real, they're like oh yeah I have them all the time. But I can tell by their blasé candour they have not had such an experience. A dream that feels as real if not more real than waking life... Common thats nothing to be blasé about. Im sure there are people that do have them often. But I do not think it is common place. I know Lucid dreams are written about a lot and Im sure many people do actually believe theyve had them. But I dont think it is so. A real Lucid dream is too amazing for people to be off-hand about it. If you've had a real one, I know you know what I'm talking about.
As I wondered around the store with my new found Lucidity, within a moment my reality suddenly compress. All I can describe it as, is like a black hole, or a whirl pool. Everything sucking in becoming a tunnel, a cliché I know, but this tunnel shortly turned to a tunnel of light. There was a great sensation of sucking, like air moving fast past me, the sound was intense, loud and just a feeling of extreme movement. The sound was a white noise rushing and then popping as like decompression. After this sudden shock all was silent, hazy, not hazy, but the kind of silence you get in a fog. A strange eerie light surrounded me like a soft focus with a blue-green tinge and I was aware that I was back in my bedroom. There I was floating in the corner of my ceiling, looking down at my own sleeping body...
I wont get into what I did next during that OOBE. But after this first OOBE I went and achieved another some days later. This second one was much easier to achieve and did not involve lucid dreaming, having the fresh memory of the sensations from this first experience still strong in my mind I was able to get straight there from an awake state. This second one freaked me out as I felt I was getting into something I didn't really understand. This event left me with a lot more questions than it did answer them. But one thing for sure, it totally change my views and understanding on spirituality, consciousness and the nature of reality. Since then I've educated myself on many occult matters and have formulated my own theories, none of which are dogmatic and are constantly up for self review. Im still very sceptical and still believe that many people that talk about such thing to be space cadets and simply off their heads talking a load of rubbish. Mere attention seekers, or self styled gurus, whatever, idiots who like attention.
I believe each person finds their own truth and should do so of their own accord. Only you can do it. No one else can teach you or tell you what is what. This is why I think most of these hippy types to be deluded attention seekers wishing to be the authority on enlightenment. Whatever, most people believe they know what's up, when in reality they dont know shit. Humility first, and you're on the road to true wisdom.
munc
dr_Skeptic, on April 11th 2008 at 7:06 pm :
It does not do to dwell on dreams, Harry, and forget to live.
- Professor Dumbledor,
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.
- Professor Dumbledor,
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.
dr_Skeptic, on April 11th 2008 at 4:05 pm :
All of this if nothing but words until someone comes forward and tells me what card is lying upside down on my bookshelf. Perhaps you keptune. you're the one who claims you can do it!
Pamela Farnsworth, on March 15th 2008 at 8:50 pm :
wow. kkkkwn is my antispam. telling.
Whom do you worship, satan?
You are prostitutes for those who you hate. And you don't even know it.
I am a victim of hacking, come get me, you will be caught.
heh
Whom do you worship, satan?
You are prostitutes for those who you hate. And you don't even know it.
I am a victim of hacking, come get me, you will be caught.
heh
Reedemer, on March 15th 2008 at 6:35 am :
Lose your fear, believe, meditate, and most difficult, lose your ego. Ego is what keeps you from higher planes.
Once experienced it is easier to manage your ego.
You might think that duplicating yourself (phisically being in two places at once) would have a lot of practical use in this plane, but if you ever reach that, you would not find any interesting application here, more than riding a bike, since your ego is almost non-existant, or you are aware of it, and manage it.
Also "hacking the brain" is not a good start, pure ego revolves around it.
LIKE A DUST PARTICLE
I want to be smaller,
Like a dust particle
Which moves with the wind.
It goes everywhere.
Can go
Sit on the head of a king,
Or can go
And fall at the feet of someone.
And it can go
And sit everywhere.
But I want to be a particle of dust
That is fragrant,
That is nourishing,
That is enlightening.
H.H. SHRI MATAJI NIRMALA DEVI
At the Age of Seven.
Once experienced it is easier to manage your ego.
You might think that duplicating yourself (phisically being in two places at once) would have a lot of practical use in this plane, but if you ever reach that, you would not find any interesting application here, more than riding a bike, since your ego is almost non-existant, or you are aware of it, and manage it.
Also "hacking the brain" is not a good start, pure ego revolves around it.
LIKE A DUST PARTICLE
I want to be smaller,
Like a dust particle
Which moves with the wind.
It goes everywhere.
Can go
Sit on the head of a king,
Or can go
And fall at the feet of someone.
And it can go
And sit everywhere.
But I want to be a particle of dust
That is fragrant,
That is nourishing,
That is enlightening.
H.H. SHRI MATAJI NIRMALA DEVI
At the Age of Seven.
notonthis, on March 14th 2008 at 8:14 am :
subjective.
i have experienced chemical induced and non-chemical induced (but possibly chemically originating) out of body experiences and they are very real. take the plunge, let go, break free.
if you think this sounds lame you have a long way to go.
pe4ce
i have experienced chemical induced and non-chemical induced (but possibly chemically originating) out of body experiences and they are very real. take the plunge, let go, break free.
if you think this sounds lame you have a long way to go.
pe4ce
TXZ4012, on March 9th 2008 at 10:16 pm :
@>Dr SKeptic;
Plz realize that we have to first ask ourselves How?
We can apply the {Astral Projecton} to Technology and How we Can apply {Technology} to the Astral Projection in order for the thing to be technologicaly possible to use.
We all read the Neuromancer, now watch
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=27642
This is debatably a possibility of at least communicationg in one-way, technically with a hardware firewall that is almost completely obscured by our lack of knowledge of inverse communications to the brain.
So advances of such a thing, combined with a video headset could provide you with the "illusionary" functions that you crave. If typing in combined with a coursor movement could be combined or such level of understandement could be met, then we could arguably dive into the so called "cyberspace" and the ways of using the more precice functioning of the interface "input of the strings with same set of keys as the typical hardware keyboard, combined with coursor and certain <hot-keys>" are not as clear for now, but lets look at how many things we would have to to keep in mind so that we could think in such a way machine clearly understands you.
That is like building a kernel for such interface from the start in our brain as well as on the machine.
Well, if someone can continue how, then please do, and how you could obtain/make/assemble the system.
ty for read4012s
Plz realize that we have to first ask ourselves How?
We can apply the {Astral Projecton} to Technology and How we Can apply {Technology} to the Astral Projection in order for the thing to be technologicaly possible to use.
We all read the Neuromancer, now watch
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=27642
This is debatably a possibility of at least communicationg in one-way, technically with a hardware firewall that is almost completely obscured by our lack of knowledge of inverse communications to the brain.
So advances of such a thing, combined with a video headset could provide you with the "illusionary" functions that you crave. If typing in combined with a coursor movement could be combined or such level of understandement could be met, then we could arguably dive into the so called "cyberspace" and the ways of using the more precice functioning of the interface "input of the strings with same set of keys as the typical hardware keyboard, combined with coursor and certain <hot-keys>" are not as clear for now, but lets look at how many things we would have to to keep in mind so that we could think in such a way machine clearly understands you.
That is like building a kernel for such interface from the start in our brain as well as on the machine.
Well, if someone can continue how, then please do, and how you could obtain/make/assemble the system.
ty for read4012s
ips, on March 9th 2008 at 2:56 pm :
Err wrong article:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307358,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307358,00.html
ips, on March 9th 2008 at 2:53 pm :
I think some people might find this article interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm
unknwn, on March 5th 2008 at 12:42 pm :
it is possible. i learned about this from a high times magazine in 95 or 96. it sounds like hippy crap but u can. the real question is where the fuck are you really at?
Anonymous, on February 20th 2008 at 1:09 pm :
It's not hallucinating. It's altering the real, physical world you are in right now. It's a different way of living. That's the practical application of it.
You, with your many degrees in physical sciences, should try this. Have you tried it yet? I am not going to read the 6 pages of comments before this to find out, sorry. If you succeed, you've got your proof. If not, then you're no worse off.
You, with your many degrees in physical sciences, should try this. Have you tried it yet? I am not going to read the 6 pages of comments before this to find out, sorry. If you succeed, you've got your proof. If not, then you're no worse off.
dr_Skeptic, on February 19th 2008 at 12:04 am :
"the 'possibility' of astral projection?"
"the possibility that you are more than just a physical body."
You sound as though you don't completely accept the idea.
"covered by gross matter and also subtle matter."?
Or perhaps, 'gross matter' being ordinary matter and 'subtle matter' being matter that does not react to radiation as is Dark matter?
Ok, if you're more than a physical body then where does THAT get you? No, not in some distant and future ethereal world, but in the reality of this world, a world inhabited not by spiritual and supernatural ephemera, but by real people whose lives are directly affected by your actions, and whose actions directly affect you. That's what I mean by practical.
I believe in the self, but not the soul. Either the soul survives death or it does not, and there is no scientific evidence that it does. Does this extirpate all meaning in life? I think not. If this is all there is, then every moment, every relationship and every person counts--and counts more if there is no afterlife than if there is. The realization that we exist together for a narrow slice of time and a limited fraction of space elevates us all to a higher plane of humanity and humility, a passing moment on the proscenium of the cosmos.
Human behavior, including religious behavior, is so complex that we must use statistics and probabilities to understand cause-and-effect relationships. Because humans are pattern-seeking animals, we cannot rely on intuitive guesses, as this might result in a scholarly version of "seek and ye shall find"--we may end up discovering what we are looking for in the data.
"the possibility that you are more than just a physical body."
You sound as though you don't completely accept the idea.
"covered by gross matter and also subtle matter."?
Or perhaps, 'gross matter' being ordinary matter and 'subtle matter' being matter that does not react to radiation as is Dark matter?
Ok, if you're more than a physical body then where does THAT get you? No, not in some distant and future ethereal world, but in the reality of this world, a world inhabited not by spiritual and supernatural ephemera, but by real people whose lives are directly affected by your actions, and whose actions directly affect you. That's what I mean by practical.
I believe in the self, but not the soul. Either the soul survives death or it does not, and there is no scientific evidence that it does. Does this extirpate all meaning in life? I think not. If this is all there is, then every moment, every relationship and every person counts--and counts more if there is no afterlife than if there is. The realization that we exist together for a narrow slice of time and a limited fraction of space elevates us all to a higher plane of humanity and humility, a passing moment on the proscenium of the cosmos.
Human behavior, including religious behavior, is so complex that we must use statistics and probabilities to understand cause-and-effect relationships. Because humans are pattern-seeking animals, we cannot rely on intuitive guesses, as this might result in a scholarly version of "seek and ye shall find"--we may end up discovering what we are looking for in the data.
playaz circle, on February 10th 2008 at 6:51 pm :
i know i sound stupid but could anybody give me advice on hacking. i'm new and i really want to start hacking but i got so much questions, and the internet don't give answers.I read in a book that i should ask for advice from a good hacker whoever that is.
jimmy, on February 7th 2008 at 2:59 pm :
what is the practical value of the possibility of astral projection? the possibility that you are more than just a physical body. that changes your whole perception. The Vedas say the atma, the self, is covered by gross matter and also subtle matter. Subtle matter subdivided further: manas, buddhi, and ahankara, mind, intelligence, and false ego.
Beyond that is the atma, the self or soul.
Beyond that is the atma, the self or soul.
admin, on February 6th 2008 at 5:52 am :
dr_skeptic: you are good at extrapolating. The post was removed not for its meaning but for its formal content. If we let you do that, in 1 year this thread will be full of links without debate around them. So initiate the debate at least if you post a link and stop acting like the oppressed person here which is really boring.
You are a poster like every others and if we judge that a post is useless or spam, we remove it, thats all. We dont have to give you a justification and consider yourself a guest on the forum that have to follow the same patterns than everyone. This means you have to get curious about what others are saying too, not just post the always same analysis of yours based on your own perception that everything which does not have a scientific proof doesnt exist.
And yea you are right, our real intention is about to dominate the world by censoring the sensitive information you are about to reveal on such a public forum. Phrack is a hidden portal of creationism, the illuminati, NSA, microsoft, and the Bush administration. All of that at once.
Microsoft, 1996:
"The software vulnerabilities in Windows are purely theoretical"
You remind me all those admins who do not believe in 0days or that they could be hacked before it happened.
This will be our last reply.
You are a poster like every others and if we judge that a post is useless or spam, we remove it, thats all. We dont have to give you a justification and consider yourself a guest on the forum that have to follow the same patterns than everyone. This means you have to get curious about what others are saying too, not just post the always same analysis of yours based on your own perception that everything which does not have a scientific proof doesnt exist.
And yea you are right, our real intention is about to dominate the world by censoring the sensitive information you are about to reveal on such a public forum. Phrack is a hidden portal of creationism, the illuminati, NSA, microsoft, and the Bush administration. All of that at once.
Microsoft, 1996:
"The software vulnerabilities in Windows are purely theoretical"
You remind me all those admins who do not believe in 0days or that they could be hacked before it happened.
This will be our last reply.
dr_Skeptic, on February 5th 2008 at 3:20 pm :
As my first post on this forum (on September 18th 2007 at 12:28 am) stated:
"You all sound like a bunch of believers to me!
But what practical benefits can be gained from
all this lucid dreaming and OBE?"
In four months not one person has responded to that question. Perhaps you have no answer.
When i find something to write an article about I will, but all I see are recountings of dreams and hallucinations. Yes, yes, it is all very interesting that we all have dreams and hallucinations, but how do you intend to apply this to the real world? If you are not discussing real applications then all you are doing is trying to sell a Pseudoscience and here is how it is done:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/pratkanis.htm#PRAT
Seems I've seen a lot of this on this forum already. Did you delete my link because you are afraid it reveals what your real intentions are? Does this now stand up to your requirements of being posted on this forum or do you still consider it more spamming? The link was indeed meant as constructive criticism. After all the link is to POSITIVE atheism, not NEGATIVE atheism! Or do you not have any intentions of being constructive here? Are you just trying to sell a belief system or is there something practical to come of all this?
But instead of discussing this, you chose to delete it. I think this demonstrates your true intentions.
"You all sound like a bunch of believers to me!
But what practical benefits can be gained from
all this lucid dreaming and OBE?"
In four months not one person has responded to that question. Perhaps you have no answer.
When i find something to write an article about I will, but all I see are recountings of dreams and hallucinations. Yes, yes, it is all very interesting that we all have dreams and hallucinations, but how do you intend to apply this to the real world? If you are not discussing real applications then all you are doing is trying to sell a Pseudoscience and here is how it is done:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/pratkanis.htm#PRAT
Seems I've seen a lot of this on this forum already. Did you delete my link because you are afraid it reveals what your real intentions are? Does this now stand up to your requirements of being posted on this forum or do you still consider it more spamming? The link was indeed meant as constructive criticism. After all the link is to POSITIVE atheism, not NEGATIVE atheism! Or do you not have any intentions of being constructive here? Are you just trying to sell a belief system or is there something practical to come of all this?
But instead of discussing this, you chose to delete it. I think this demonstrates your true intentions.
dr_Skeptic, on February 5th 2008 at 1:15 pm :
I think you guys have missed my point entirely. When are you guys going to discuss real aplications for your illusions and hallucinations? As I've said many times, I have tried and experienced these things. But just because something feels real does not mean that it is. Also, just because I say something is an hallucination or an illusion does not mean that it cannot be useful. After all, you watch and experience a very popular illusion every day.... Television! Is the moving picture on your TV Screen real? Or is it an illusion created by your brain? Are these people really in your living room? Does it matter?
Think of the posibilities if this illusion of Astral projection and lucid dreaming can be explotied by technology, as the visual illusion of Television is used today, and used by computer games, Robotics, virtual reality, 'holodecks?', etc...
It does not have to be "real" to be useful! "Illusion" and "hallucination" does not mean "not useful."
Let's see a discussion of real applications, this is a hacker website not the psychic hotline!
Think of the posibilities if this illusion of Astral projection and lucid dreaming can be explotied by technology, as the visual illusion of Television is used today, and used by computer games, Robotics, virtual reality, 'holodecks?', etc...
It does not have to be "real" to be useful! "Illusion" and "hallucination" does not mean "not useful."
Let's see a discussion of real applications, this is a hacker website not the psychic hotline!
admin, on February 5th 2008 at 2:45 am :
DrSkeptic: your last message (a single url) has been removed. No one should post message with a single url. The forum is a place to debate (and backup your claims with external resources), its not a linkpastebin. If you want to have space on the phrack website, defend your opinion constructively (and not with random posts on the forum that keep repeating the same arguments) and be able to insert dozens of references, write an article.
dreamwalker, on February 2th 2008 at 3:18 pm :
I know that the editors took a big risk in publishing this article and as the ensuing scuffle proved, there are logical and skeptic minds that read these papers. IMO, the misunderstanding lies in the choice of words. "Out of Body Experiences" in my mind rank next to UFOs and Alien Abductions. It has the rank smell of pseudoscience that most skeptical and logical people would balk at without even examining. However, all this seems to undermine the interesting questions and implications of lucid dreaming.
The human mind is the most advanced computer in the universe (AFAIK). I see no reason why a REAL hacker would mind(no pun intended) finding out how it works. Ever dreamed code? Ever solve a hard problem in a dream? Ever notice how when you work on some code or problem real hard for a long time and when you do something else and come back later the solution seems so obvious? I've always thought of dreams as a brain reprogramming to ready you for the day ahead based on what happened yesterday. There have been studies about how intimately learning memory and sleep are related. I don't think there is a shortage of things to learn when it comes to computers so any extra advantage helps.
Now what I'm getting to is that if you are able to be aware while you're dreaming can you guide the dream state AKA. programming? Is it possible to solve and pose real practical problems in dreams and use them as a sort of 'holodeck' to visualize the various complex structures inherent in computers and seek to find logical and functional inconsistencies?
As an aside, for an interesting analysis of dreamwalking see the movie "Waking Life."
The human mind is the most advanced computer in the universe (AFAIK). I see no reason why a REAL hacker would mind(no pun intended) finding out how it works. Ever dreamed code? Ever solve a hard problem in a dream? Ever notice how when you work on some code or problem real hard for a long time and when you do something else and come back later the solution seems so obvious? I've always thought of dreams as a brain reprogramming to ready you for the day ahead based on what happened yesterday. There have been studies about how intimately learning memory and sleep are related. I don't think there is a shortage of things to learn when it comes to computers so any extra advantage helps.
Now what I'm getting to is that if you are able to be aware while you're dreaming can you guide the dream state AKA. programming? Is it possible to solve and pose real practical problems in dreams and use them as a sort of 'holodeck' to visualize the various complex structures inherent in computers and seek to find logical and functional inconsistencies?
As an aside, for an interesting analysis of dreamwalking see the movie "Waking Life."
dr_Skeptic, on January 26th 2008 at 9:23 pm :
Fantasy is not reality.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s515045.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s515045.htm
dr_Skeptic, on January 24th 2008 at 11:55 pm :
@d4n
My point, exactly!
My point, exactly!
d4n, on January 23th 2008 at 12:54 am :
well -
putting all debates aside,
has anyone tried it?
Does anyone have the time/effort/energy to seriously try it?
if i read correctly, the author could finally manage to slip into a state where he/she could walk "as a ghost" and e.g. read things.
obviously - that would be first class..
to the author: can you still do that? how often? if you really can - then you can prove it through experiments! (with 3rd parties)
Until you can, that last part won't will remain "in your head", definitely fun, but "in your head" only :) you might be tickling all your senses, your visual mental processes - which is cool, doesn't need scientific proof really.
Regards,
putting all debates aside,
has anyone tried it?
Does anyone have the time/effort/energy to seriously try it?
if i read correctly, the author could finally manage to slip into a state where he/she could walk "as a ghost" and e.g. read things.
obviously - that would be first class..
to the author: can you still do that? how often? if you really can - then you can prove it through experiments! (with 3rd parties)
Until you can, that last part won't will remain "in your head", definitely fun, but "in your head" only :) you might be tickling all your senses, your visual mental processes - which is cool, doesn't need scientific proof really.
Regards,
Ballan, on January 22th 2008 at 2:29 pm :
@Dr_Skeptic
<quote>
My upcoming book will reflect on these arguments.
</quote>
So after all I was right.
Not only were you enjoying yourself but you also gained material for your next title on the back of people like "us".
ROFL
<quote>
My upcoming book will reflect on these arguments.
</quote>
So after all I was right.
Not only were you enjoying yourself but you also gained material for your next title on the back of people like "us".
ROFL
Logic guy, on January 20th 2008 at 5:32 pm :
Science guy: I think you havent read properly my comments because everything I said was not intended to justify the existence of astral projections or any other psi phenomenon. That is clear if you read again my posts that my only point was to state that *not everything can have a formal proof*.
I allowed myself to draw a parallel with Galileo which I must admit is not entirely justified. The only reason why I dont classify this article as a hoax is because I know personally the author of this file. I had many discussions with him IRL about this topic and I dont see a reason why everything inside the article would be lies. You can say its badly or incompletely interpreted, that there is no verifiable theory explained, but he made observations about the phenomenon (and not just him!), which are studied for a long time by agencies interested in taking advantages of these hidden human capabilities.
Just like scientists, keptune has been for years digging into the state of the art in psychology, psychanalysis, and still-to-be-explained psychic phenomenons. Such background work does not appear in the article and the paper definitely lack references of the huge (and mostly non-advised) work on this topic. But hey, its a Phrack article about a personal experience. Its not a research article about developing a formal theory of psychic phenomenons.
I allowed myself to draw a parallel with Galileo which I must admit is not entirely justified. The only reason why I dont classify this article as a hoax is because I know personally the author of this file. I had many discussions with him IRL about this topic and I dont see a reason why everything inside the article would be lies. You can say its badly or incompletely interpreted, that there is no verifiable theory explained, but he made observations about the phenomenon (and not just him!), which are studied for a long time by agencies interested in taking advantages of these hidden human capabilities.
Just like scientists, keptune has been for years digging into the state of the art in psychology, psychanalysis, and still-to-be-explained psychic phenomenons. Such background work does not appear in the article and the paper definitely lack references of the huge (and mostly non-advised) work on this topic. But hey, its a Phrack article about a personal experience. Its not a research article about developing a formal theory of psychic phenomenons.
Science guy, on January 20th 2008 at 2:17 pm :
Awe come on folks! Godel...Goshmel! We should all remember that despite Logic guy's arguments of Godel's Theorem, that nothing can be proved, there is still no theory to support any mechanism for the existence of psi phenomenon. Without data and evidence, there is nothing for a theory or mechanism to explain. Without a theory and mechanism, data and evidence drift aimlessly on a boundless sea. Until psi proponents can elucidate how thoughts generated by neurons in the sender's brain can pass through the skull and into the brain of the receiver, skepticism is the appropriate response to psychic phenomenon. Until psi finds its Darwin, it will continue to drift on the fringes of science.
And since Godel's theorem only reinforces dr_Skeptics premise that Astral Projection cannot be proved by a test suggested by keptune, it was a poor choice of arguments in support of astral projection.
I'm afraid, despite what Logic guy says, Galileo had a little more than "observations" to support his ideas that the planets circle the sun because it's a well known fact that observations alone will not accurately describe the orbits of the planets. A system of mathematics of continuous change, developed by Issac Newton, now known as calculus, is required since the gravitational forces on a planet are constantly changing. Therefore, he had data generated by mathematics and theories of gravitation and ellipses developed and supported by other scientists such as Newton and Keplar. Hence data, evidence (observations) and theories or a mechanism to explain his observations. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to compare this article to Galileo's situation. Since no supporting theories were proposed to explain just how one might project their consciousness. Just saying it can be done is not enough. Bold statements do not make a science. And don't forget, we now except Galileo's ideas over that of the Church, who said the earth is the center of the Universe!
The law of gravity can be considered factual, despite Godel's theorem, meaning that it has been confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. The projection of consciousness can be considered nonfactual because it has never been confirmed to any extent.
After all, would anyone like to tell me that their cellphones are worthless simply because Godel's incompleteness theorem says that the theory of electromagnetism cannot be strictly proven?
Believe what you want, but don't misuse science to confirm your beliefs.
And since Godel's theorem only reinforces dr_Skeptics premise that Astral Projection cannot be proved by a test suggested by keptune, it was a poor choice of arguments in support of astral projection.
I'm afraid, despite what Logic guy says, Galileo had a little more than "observations" to support his ideas that the planets circle the sun because it's a well known fact that observations alone will not accurately describe the orbits of the planets. A system of mathematics of continuous change, developed by Issac Newton, now known as calculus, is required since the gravitational forces on a planet are constantly changing. Therefore, he had data generated by mathematics and theories of gravitation and ellipses developed and supported by other scientists such as Newton and Keplar. Hence data, evidence (observations) and theories or a mechanism to explain his observations. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to compare this article to Galileo's situation. Since no supporting theories were proposed to explain just how one might project their consciousness. Just saying it can be done is not enough. Bold statements do not make a science. And don't forget, we now except Galileo's ideas over that of the Church, who said the earth is the center of the Universe!
The law of gravity can be considered factual, despite Godel's theorem, meaning that it has been confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. The projection of consciousness can be considered nonfactual because it has never been confirmed to any extent.
After all, would anyone like to tell me that their cellphones are worthless simply because Godel's incompleteness theorem says that the theory of electromagnetism cannot be strictly proven?
Believe what you want, but don't misuse science to confirm your beliefs.
dr_Skeptic, on January 19th 2008 at 2:22 pm :
My final statement:
As said Logic guy, I also tend to think that everything that is not formally proven cannot be considered true. Therefore, I do not believe there is any rational basis for believing in astral projection. So keptune can take his rational test and shove it up his..., well you know what I mean...
@Ballan:
Here's one more for you:
"Refuse to lower yourself to the level of your antagonist."
-=-=-
Everyone have a great New Year and thanks for the entertainment! My upcoming book will reflect on these arguments.
-=-=-
As said Logic guy, I also tend to think that everything that is not formally proven cannot be considered true. Therefore, I do not believe there is any rational basis for believing in astral projection. So keptune can take his rational test and shove it up his..., well you know what I mean...
@Ballan:
Here's one more for you:
"Refuse to lower yourself to the level of your antagonist."
-=-=-
Everyone have a great New Year and thanks for the entertainment! My upcoming book will reflect on these arguments.
-=-=-